Lauren Kelly: I am Lauren Kelly, lead for the Planet Vertical at the World Bank's Independent Evaluation Group, and I will be your host today. Our oceans and coastal resources sustain life on Earth. Much of the oxygen we breathe comes from the ocean. Oceans absorb and distribute heat, are vital sources of protein for billions of people, and through tourism, fishing, shipping, energy, and other emerging industries, contribute trillions of dollars to the global economy and hundreds of millions of jobs.

But our oceans and coastlines are in crisis, much of it caused by human activity from plastic pollution and overfishing and unsustainable destructive practices that destroy ocean floors and habitats.All of this massively reduces the potential of our oceans and coastlines to provide us with life-sustaining services, to buffer us from disasters caused by natural hazards, and for us to be able to profit from our natural resources for generations and millennia to come.

In this episode, we will focus on the growing call to redefine our relationship with oceans and coastal resources, and we'll do this by talking with some leading experts on the blue economy approach, an approach that is widely recognized to shift the way that we work and think in ocean spaces from fragmented to integrated approaches with a focus on planning, restorative and inclusive actions that support sustainable and equitable management of these precious resources for years to come.

I have the privilege of introducing you today to three outstanding guests: Tom Pickerell, the Global Director of the Ocean Program at the World Resource Institute; Michele Diez, Senior Environmental Specialist at the World Bank and former manager of PROBLUE; and Lucy Greenhill, Director of Blue Economy at Howell Marine Consulting.

With no further ado, let me turn to Michele. Michele, you have been front and center at the helm, as it were, of the World Bank's work on the blue economy. To set the stage for us, can you tell us about why the blue economy principles put us on a better path to sustainable and inclusive economic growth, and why should governments, industries, and other stakeholders prioritize more holistic and sustainable approaches to ocean and coastal resource use?

Michele Diez: There is no doubt that the blue economy principles are transformative for economic growth and prosperity. They help us improve livelihoods, create jobs, and more importantly, they ensure the health of the ocean ecosystems. Governments and industries are starting to look at the big picture, a more holistic approach, which we've seen key elements such as the protection of biodiversity, climate change, social inclusion, circular economy, and more importantly, this is an approach that focuses on the ocean's restorative potential to help the ocean recover and recoup.

So what have we been doing here at the Bank? We've been stepping up our efforts to support countries in the development of their blue economy, and what is key here is that we have moved away from the advocacy work and we're actually implementing this holistic approach, and it's an approach that drives sustainable growth while also restoring and preserving the health of the ocean ecosystems. Part of this work is supported by PROBLUE, which is the Bank's trust fund for the blue economy. It was established six years ago to help countries transition to a blue economy in an integrated and sustainable way.

Lauren Kelly: Thank you, Michelle. I want to point to the work that the Independent Evaluation Group did in producing an evaluation on the blue economy called Making Waves. And that evaluation recognizes how the World Bank and other organizations have contributed to bringing the blue economy to the global stage. So I want to turn to you now, Tom and Lucy, to talk about why it's important to keep building this global common platform to continue to raise awareness and to enable a shared understanding of the blue economy.

Tom Pickerell: Everyone is using the term blue economy from investors to NGOs to government, but there's not always a shared understanding of standards or definitions, and this has a risk that the blue economy could become co-opted or diluted, and we do need this sort of common understanding that we're talking about the same thing. And the blue economy needs to be sustainable, inclusive, and equitable, not just blue. That's not just the only thing here.

Another reason why we need to have a shared understanding is to unlock aligned action and investment, and finance is so key to make things happen, and this makes it easier for all the different stakeholders from donors, investors, and the communities themselves to coordinate efforts. And this leads to smarter investments, faster implementation of actions, and fewer conflicting projects. And the final sort of part from our view is we've got to ensure social and environmental integrity in the blue economy. There's a risk that harmful or extractive practices can be branded as blue just because they're contributing to the economy and the ocean, but we've got to have a strong evidence-based definition or platform to ensure that any actions we do are truly serving people, nature, and the climate, not just for short-term profit.

Lucy Greenhill: I'd very much like to echo Tom's comments. But the main point I'd like to make in answer to this question is that while debating that concept is essential because it increases the dialogue and ambition in relation to key aspects, like nature recovery and equity, my experience is sometimes that can be a bit of a distraction and we can get stuck in that kind of theoretical conceptual loop of what a blue economy is. And actually, it's much more important to get down to the detail of practically what needs to change at a country level, because often there's some quite visible and obvious sticking points, whether it's sustainability in your fisheries or integration across government that we know needs to happen.

So actually, it's more important to move from that high-level definition down to then working through what is a blue economy vision and articulating that at a national level and what are the priorities at a national level and how will sectors be transitioned to reach those blue economy outcomes. Because of course the elephant in the room and the debate and negotiations that need to be center stage is the acknowledgement that we can’t have it all in a world of thresholds and tipping points. And we need to be addressing tradeoffs and acknowledging that some things need to give to reach those sustainability outcomes.

Lauren Kelly: And that brings us into the next question. In our evaluation, we identified fragmentation of policy and activities across different government agencies as being one of the constraints to achieving a more holistic blue economy. I want to ask from your experience, how can we support that governance and regulatory work, those frameworks that need to come about to break those silos across agencies and across different elements of planning and development? Over to you, Michelle.

Michele Diez: Indeed, fragmentation is a major issue. I think that we need to understand that the ocean is not a collection of isolated sectors, like fishing, shipping, tourism, etc. It functions as a whole ecosystem. So all of these sectors are interconnected and require an integrated approach. So we have a Marine Spatial Plan, which is a governance tool that we have been promoting at the Bank, and this is at the heart of this integrated approach.

It has three pillars. The first pillar is about data and analytics, and this is really the upstream work that is needed to assess the blue economy potential in each of the countries, which is actually the basis to inform new policies. Then we have the second pillar, which is institutions and policy reforms. So having policy reforms to attract the private sector is key here, and we're also building the capacity of institutions to ensure that these institutions look at the seascape in an integrated way.

Lastly, the third pillar is about innovative financing, and this is about developing and implementing new financing mechanisms for the blue economy, and here we have a range of instruments going from the traditional ones to the more innovative ones including fisheries insurances, blue bonds, and so on. So fully implementing this blue economy approach will help address this fragmentation that is happening now and also address this action of moving away from this high-level definition and looking into sustainable outcomes, which is what Lucy had mentioned before. Thank you.

Lucy Greenhill: Most of the time, this coordination and integration is about dialogue and enabling conversation between different types of people, which I appreciate sounds quite fuzzy, but it is about people within different departments who bring different perspectives, understanding each other and thinking beyond those usual boundaries. It's about getting people to understand what their role and responsibilities are and how they operate in relation to others to be able to understand what they need to know to make better decisions. Just having a really frank conversation about what are the barriers here and what are the key actions that we can take forward in the next three to six months is quite powerful. This is all about moving quickly, creating momentum, and then reflecting and learning on that experience and then creating another wave of momentum to take it forward.

And the last point I'd like to make is that being more integrated in systems-based is also about organizations like governments and institutions, like the World Bank, really reflecting on how they operate internally and whether that is actually supporting that outward-facing integrated approach. This goes to whether there is a shared understanding internally of what a blue economy is. Are there mechanisms for departments and teams to work together? Is there sharing of knowledge and data across different teams so that you're working from the same evidence base? Are staff actually incentivized to have a broader knowledge base and work across boundaries rather than being deep experts? Sometimes it's even just the way that your professional reward system works that actually incentivizes people to stay within their boundaries rather than working in a more integrated way.

Tom Pickerell: I think it's clear that siloed efforts are not going to deliver a sustainable blue economy, and countries need integrated governance structures, not just sort of a zonation or mapping. These governance structures need to connect sectors, coordinate policies, and align incentives as well. The High-Level Panel for a Sustainable Ocean Economy, which is a body formed of 18 heads of state, has come together to actually try to do that very thing. They have developed tools called Sustainable Ocean Plans, and we believe that these are the most powerful tools that will enable us to do just that. Sustainable Ocean Plans, or SOPs, are essentially holistic, strategic place-based frameworks to guide the sustainable management of ocean areas. One of the things we're doing at the United Nations Ocean Conference, which is coming up, is launching something called the 100% Alliance, which seeks to expand this commitment to other countries with a view to getting as many countries as possible implementing Sustainable Ocean Plans. When you root the Sustainable Ocean Plans in stakeholder engagement and cross-sector integration, they can provide a whole-of-government and a whole-of-society approach.

We've actually produced guidance on incorporating indigenous knowledge and traditional knowledge into the development of Sustainable Ocean Plans. It's not just like an added tick the box; it's actually incorporating these communities and these knowledge holders from the very beginning. We've seen some super examples of stakeholder engagement in Australia and Ghana, where the whole process has been based around community engagement. So that's a real opportunity for us to take that forward in a way that's innovative but also breaks down the silos.

Lauren Kelly: You've raised issues around some things that we haven't discussed yet, which are the social elements and the participatory elements of ensuring that the blue economy is owned not just by the critical policymakers we've already talked about today, but by the people that every day live amongst and with the blue economy resources that are also critical for their livelihood. So thank you for raising that. Well, I want to ask one more question even though I think that we're getting close to our time, but I think it's important to continue the conversation and take it to that very next level, which has to do with what it takes to achieve things technically.

I know that Michelle has worked a bit in the Caribbean, in fact quite a bit in the Caribbean, on very good practices in the Eastern Caribbean, and Lucy, you've worked in Indonesia also with the Indonesian government and experiences there, and Tom, I don't have a country pulled out for you, but I know that you've had vast experiences as well, and I don't want to limit this conversation to those areas or countries, but I do want to end my question to all of you with bringing this to a level where the listener can really feel and understand what we're talking about. And anyone can start. I'll leave it open to the panel.

Michele Diez: Thank you, Lauren. I'll give the example of the Eastern Caribbean. The Eastern Caribbean has been, I would say, at the forefront to invest heavily in developing their blue economy. They did put a lot of effort into ocean governance and also data-driven decision-making. A critical governance tool that was developed and is being implemented now is Marine Spatial Plans. This contributes to the high-level panel on oceans that Tom talked about along with the Sustainable Ocean Plans. This gives a better understanding of the different ocean uses, analyzes the trade-offs among the sectors, and informs policies and investments.

Another good practice from the Eastern Caribbean was the regional ocean policy that they've adopted, and they've also established the regional governance committee with the representatives of the Eastern Caribbean to deliberate on blue economy issues. That's a good example of how the Caribbean is advancing on the blue economy at the regional level.

Lucy Greenhill: I've been lucky enough to work in both the Eastern Caribbean and Indonesia, so I have some reflections there. I think one cross-cutting factor across both regions is that they have a regional framework. Michelle was talking about the regional governance structure in the Caribbean supported by the organization of Eastern Caribbean states, so the OECS over there, and we've got the Association of Southeast Asian Nations or ASEAN over in Indonesia, and both those having that regional framework really adds a lot of strength to the development of the blue economy in the region.

In Indonesia in particular, I think there's good practice there, and it links to the institutional integration point and that need for a whole-of-government approach. One challenge we often see is that the blue economy can be something that's led by a separate department that sits off to the side, or it can be tied in with the environment department or fisheries, and it doesn't really get that kind of cross-government traction. Whereas in Indonesia, the blue economy has been led by Bappenas, which is the National Planning Ministry, and that's really powerful because they hold some influence over other ministries in the government of Indonesia through the allocation of budgets, and money talks.

Tom Pickerell: A good example is in Fiji. The Fijian National Ocean Policy, which is their Sustainable Ocean Plan, really addresses this head-on. They note that there are different elements of their government that work on different issues with different policies, and what they've done is they've established an overarching panel that sits above all the departments. So anything that goes through the ocean space has to go through this panel, and so all the decision-making is coordinated and there's no excuse for, "We didn't know about this."

Everything is funneled together, and there is a built-in step in their governance structure to ensure that there is collaboration and coordination. Some of the outcomes of their work so far have been they've designated effective protection for 30% of their national marine area, and they've also produced strong policies on single-use plastics and packaging to directly impact the scourge of marine litter. This is having a direct impact on the health and resilience of their marine ecosystems, which is important for not only their communities but also for the tourism industry there as well. So you can see very clearly how this kind of approach can work quite effectively.

Lauren Kelly: Thank you for the example of Fiji, Tom, and for walking us through it. Well, we've had a very comprehensive conversation around the blue economy, about what it means, around what it takes, and how to put it into practice. I can't thank my guests enough today, Michelle, Tom, Lucy, for lending your experience and wisdom on this topic to share widely. Just a big shout-out for all working together in a collaborative way to implement the unambiguous, more progressive way of engaging in ocean and coastal spaces. Thank you so much for joining today.